This looks like a promising project with real viable outcomes.

I am more than intrigued with this. Where do the small turbines come into play with this project ?
--John D. Baxter
<mailto:9aviator@bellsouth.net>

The cooler you run your storage system, the more efficiently it will absorb heat from the sun.

However, if you use a heat engine to recover the energy from storage, the hotter it is, the more efficiently it can be extracted.

From these opposing principles, it will be possible to calculate the optimum temperature at which to store the heat for any particular set-up.
--James Morris, P. E. (Ohio)
<mailto:james-morris@sbcglobal.net>

In your project description you mention a mold or die to make the mirrors. What are you thinking the mirrors will be made of? I work in a mold shop and could possibly help out if the material is moldable.
--Todd Warren
<mailto:todd@apollo-tool.com>

The small turbine may be used to extract the heat and turn an electric generator. I do need help with the mirrors. I will try to get a picture of a mirror up un the site. Some sort of plastic or alluminum and then coated. Main characteristcs should be light weight, cheap and strong.
--Nick Landherr
<http://www.solarthermalelectric.org>

This a very viable idea! With the prices of current non-renewable resources only rising...this project could be the next step.
--Ryan Chies
<mailto:ryanchies@yahoo.com>

We have some solar walk-way lights but they are not good on dreary days. The system, that interests me will have to have back-up and redundancy. I must review your system before I can comment or ask any questions.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

One method of getting the mirrors that you need is to buy thin polished aluminum sheeting or stainless steel for now. Are you trying to build a solar furnace that produces extreemly high heat?

If you could make due with convex round mirrirs that are about 3' in diameter, they are readily available from WW Grainger, come with mounting hardware and they are not that expensive each.

Something like this may even be returned if they did not do what you need them to? Get that in writing before you buy.
Down here in Texas, we can fry eggs on sidewalks during our summer time. I use to have some solar water heating panels but those tubes were made from black plastic.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

Yesterday, I found two websites that have everything from book, mirrors, sheet glass, solar furnace assembly plans, and Fresnel Lenses.

They talk about free "used" energy products and I wonder if anybody has checked them out. I think they are located in Michigan's upper penn?

1. "Sunshine to Dollars" and it's affiliate Knowledge Publications.

2. Just type those phrases in and they come right up.

3. The Fresnel Lens will "reportedly" instantly generate 3,000 degrees by being focused with respect to the sun. The picture shows one being hand held and used to ignite firewood.

I hope this helps and/or we get feedback no matter if it's good or bad.

Thanks,

Bill f
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

Thanks to all of you for thinking and sharing your thoughts.I will check the granger and yes we want high heat,at least 350F. The mirrors need to be all the same spherical radius so that the heat from all of them is reflected back to one spot. I have chosen this method because it is the most eficient.
--Nick Landherr
<mailto:theflag@smig.net>

Hi, I've thought about the system a little more...

Storing summer heat for winter use is a common enough idea, but it hadn't occurred to me to store winter cold for summer use. Neat.

What's do you figure the average heat of the storage tank will be at peak temperature?

I can't imagine it will be much higher than 70C... and in that case I ask why are you using such a high power concentrator that necessitates a heat transfer medium other than water? If you want lots of low quality heat there are other solar solutions than high power concentration.

If you use a mirror-facet solar trough you'd get your 70C easily enough, but the cost of the machine would be reduced significantly.

Now on your website you asked for ideas about making cheap lightweight parabolic mirrors. I've got a ghost of an idea for you...

I saw a report from some guys at MIT who made a 3 foot diameter adjustable focus parabolic reflector from mylar by creating a vacuum behind the mylar to draw it backwards to the desired shape. It gave them a sweet focal point.


This is clearly not feasible for a large number of small parabolic mirrors, but what if you could create the vacuum (or pressurize the reflective side), achieve the desired parabolic shape, and then fix the mylar in position with glue or fiberglass or some such think. Odds are you'd need to go with modules around a foot in diameter, but the focal points should be precise enough that that shouldn't matter.

For the time being each mirror would have to be done individually, but the concept would be proven and with an industrial process these could be pumped out fast and cheap.

And just to be sure, you've heard of Scheffler reflectors right?

What is Reflect Tec?

Keep up the good work,

Lorin


--Lorin
<http://solarfireproject.blogspot.com/c5i3bu>

My plan is to store 350F heat in this tank minimum. The urethane insulation
on the outside will only take 350F. Maybe more, depending on the refractory
insulation on the inside. The higher the heat, the longer it will take to
loose it. The collector on the solar trough is less efficient because of
it's extra surface area,heat loss area.
The mylar and vacuum over a frame may be a very good way. I would like
to keep them at four feet diameter so there are less in numbers to aim. Each
mirror will have to be aimed at assembly time.
Reflect Tec is like milar but 96% reflective and sticky back.
Thanks for thinking, Nick

--Nick Landherrxhkkny

Nick, even home baking ovens can overheat and get to 1,000 deg.+ F; especially if they are self cleaning ovens. The Kiln that we used got to 2,000 + deg. f.. We used fire brick on the outside of the kiln mortered with refractory cement. The home ovens had mineral wool on the outside of a steel primary case and a steel jacket over the insulation.

In your case, I would spotweld steel tabs about 9" on centers, stucco the whole outside with refractory cement and chicken wire fence, let it dry and insulate it with mineral wool and a vapor barrier. That would let you use a medium good to those upper temperatures. This same insulating system should work for both wet and dry steam.

Insulation should not limit your operating temperature; just force you to make the right choices.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

"The higher the heat, the longer it will take to
loose it." That is true from an absolute perspective (in the sense that if you have two identical containers, each carrying fluids identical except for their temperature, the hotter one will reach room temperature after the other one). Since you're talking about months, I can see where you're coming from. However, consider:

The hotter something is the faster it loses its heat. If you had two tanks, one at 350 the other at 200, the 350 will lose more heat in the same amount of time. Whether or not it is worth all the hassle to get the temp up to 350 is an optimization equation you'll have to calculate.

My feeling is that a bigger tank with more low quality heat will be easier to construct and will hold more heat for longer.

The larger the storage unit, the less surface area / unit of heat sink, which minimizes overall heat loss. The fact that the heat sink is half as hot as what you're suggesting means that it will be losing heat less quickly as well.

Do check out Scheffler, btw.


--Lorin
<http://www.solarfireproject.com>

oh, and can you give me a price on reflec tech? sounds interesting. how sticky is sticky? once stuck can it be removed?
4 foot diameter should prove no difficulty for the vacuum technique. What's your focal distance? how many such reflectors would you have?
the trick is getting the parabola to stay in place.
Also, I'm not sure precisely the reflectors would work off-center (since I gather you're thinking of multiple 4 foot parabolas focusing on the same target)
--Lorin
<http://www.solarfireproject.com>

Nick and other solar engineers-

Here are some principles that I hope might help with parabolic reflectors, heat use and storage, start-up marketing, and manufacturing in general.

- Light is a spherical, 3-dimensional wave, like expanding bubbles of all sizes depending on the alignment of the points that deflect or reflect it. So the geometrical concentration must be to a point, if focused from a 3-dimensional curve, or a line if focused from a 2-dimensional curve.

No matter what materials you use for your first trials, plan on several dozen constructions before you begin to recognize these important production principles:

To produce the curve and align the surface is the principle difficulty. You must create the geometrical form of alignment with material (cable/string/bars) in order to either measure or tool the form (or both at the same time) into the final material or the mold for the final material. That means, as in almost all manufacturing projects, you will have to release your mind from a focus on the product, and approach the goal from the surrounding environment (the structure required to hold and move both the material and the tool in the right relation).

The choice of materials, if molded or directly tooled to form, will determine the measuring or tooling apparatus required, as well as the possible ways of producing reflection.

I think a good place to start marketing might be something like selling your friends or neighbors solar bar-b-cues at a deep discount, just to get their feedback and change the product accordingly. Then you can start local sales at full price until the marketing equation starts to show promise. From their you can get all the funding you need to expand from your local business bank.

Heat is always most efficiently used on the spot, since storage of micro-motions is a loosing proposition...the more efficient the transmission into storage, the more rapidly the store is dissipated.

The lines of allignment for a parabolic reflector are parallel lines (AB) perpendicular to a plane(A) (the collection area) forming an angle (ABC) at the reflection surface to a point (C) that is the focus. Lines AB+BC must be equal (distance) to cause the collected light to 'fall' simultaneously on the same point. The geometry is the same to focus light onto a line instead of a point, accept that the collection plane is replaced with a line.
--Mark

I know you are right Bill. This tank was free, it is good enough for some
experiments and will be good enough to do the electricity generation with a
refrigerant.
I do realize that several 8'X8'X20' insulated containers will be used
for the long term storage of heat and cold and before that someone needs to
figure out the insulation options and cost of each way. I have been thinking
of a way to spray the refractory cement. My son has a wood fired pottery
kiln and we got it to 2670F. Fire Bricks are just to expensive.
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm this will keep us all busy for months.
Duane has been at it for a long time and has a super site check it out.
And Lorin I have been searching and can't find Reflec Tech anywhere but
this is the correct spelling and it cost me $3.00 a foot. phone 402-9357733.
If a person could keep a vacuum on the film and put expanding foam behind
the mylar and not distort it maybe that would be a way to make cheap
mirrors. Yes there would be probably 20 if they are round mirrors then put
PV panels in the gaps. Thirteen foot radius I think is a good focal
distance. It can be easily removed but stayed on all winter. 4" pie shapes
were used on the dish to stop wrinkles It seems a lot less shine but lit a
2x4 just the other day in about 2 secs so onward.
Hi Mark, and Thanks to all, Nick

--Nick Landherr

Nick, with regards to spraying refractory cement, try and enlist the help of a pool man; as in gunnite. The possibility of multiple projects and some free hometown advertising may just be enough for a test sample to perfect the product. Humm? 8' x 8' x 20'; perfect for a well warn steel overseas shipping container.

I have seen them go for around $300.00.

Do you understand the principal behind a weighted thermocouple? Thermocouple wire is pretty thin and we use to braze them together on a heavy steel washer to improve millivolt production stability.

Antique ranges used cast iron filings inside a double walled fire box. Here is what it did in some old Chambers stoves " preheat for 30 minutes and cook at 350 deg. f. for 3+ hours.

Consider adding cast iron pieces to the inside of your heat chamber to add stability and increase heat loss time.

I have done vacuum forming and the reverse "blow molding". Pressure is about 100 times more forgiving than maintaing a vacuum which will sneak thru from 1 to 5 micron pores in anything including welds.

Talk to the tank manufacturers in your area or mine. Trinity industries uses metal spinning to make tank ends for rail road cars and gas storage tanks.

With one tank end you could nake all the round mirrors you want and anybody pushing green may be willing to help you. Lay the plastic out over the end, sticky side up, fill it with a sawdust and glue mix, let it dry and on to the next one. The wet mix should flatten out any potential wrinkles in the plastic. this would be easy to test with a garbage can and some vis-queen.


--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

The geometry for focus is really not a haphazzard thing, precision makes a big difference with light.

I'm having trouble accessing the rest of the site, so I have to guess at the need for large equipment.

There is an important rational principle to testing. The magnitude for most systems can be reduced even to the point of creating an investment for greater precision instruments to make and measure smaller tests as long as all of the functioning parts operate the same at greater magnitudes.

It seems to me that these solar systems could be tested on a very small scale without any defect in the knowledge gained, and that can then be magnified.
--Mark

Nick, Another quandry for me concerning your design is what medium you are going to use as the heat storage inside your tank? Liquid, solid or fluidized?

It sounds like you are considering both heat engines and steam turbines, is that correct?

The mirrors could be used for a solar furnace and I get ther idea it may produce 3,000 Deg. f heat? Didn't you ignite a 2" x 4" x ?" piece of wood in 2 seconds?

The next question is what that tubing in your pix needs to be made from? One reason I love steam is because you can recycle it back thru your fire box at a fraction of the cost of making steam from cold water. I can also invision you magnifying the beam power by directing it thru a glass lens and on to your primary heat storage unit?. Enough questions for now; I eagerly await your answers.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

Nick-
There's a ratio between area and temperature. The same heat in a larger area has a lower temperature than the same heat on a small spot. High temperatures on a small spot don't mean much, unless you need high temperatures on a small spot. (MAybe a solar welder?)

There's another ratio between the rate that heat leaves a system and the rate that heat enters a system. Heat travels into and through EVERYTHING! All matter (even the best refractory material) absorbs and transmits heat. Getting familiar with these ratios takes practical experience. Building a small forging furnace and forging different metals of different sizes/dimensions will give you a very good feel for how heat and matter interact. It will also give you knowledge in methods of construction and use of materials for containing heat.
--Mark

Sorry it has been hectic here. Great ideas! We need to do a lot of testing of these ideas. Any volunteers? I am going to order the galvanized steel for the base and the aluminum for the mirror mount tomorrow. About $4,000.
A spherical radius of about 13' will be needed for the mold. Spinners tell me the first one will cost several thousand bucks. I am not sure these tanks are the right shape and what the radius of the sphere may be.
This has been done on a small and a large scale. They made steam and ran a steam engine with a dish in the late 1800's.
This tank has silica flour in it. Sand,iron,aluminum, or whatever may be used for heat storage. I chose silica because it is slow to heat up and slow to cool. With the 20 foot diameter dish temps of well over 5000 F are possible. I plan to prevent this by spreading the focal point out a bit. The transfer oil in the stainless tubing will not take that much heat. The tubing is all stainless so far. This prototype has to work so I have made it with very good materials and the options of steam and everything else are open.
I realize that containing the heat is a problem. The storage container will need to have thick insulated walls and may be housed in a structure where the heat will be welcome.
I need to concentrate on the base for now and finding funding. It would be great if any other person would want to do some experiments with insulation. I was rushed by winter and the first heat storage tank is in place. Now I need to get a lot of heat in it soon.
Thanks for thinking, Nick
--Nick Landherr

What do you mean, 'this protoype has to work'?
Do you mean it can't fail (It can fail)?
Do you mean you have enlisted so many people to help that you would be ashamed to fail (failure is fun for people who help, it lets them off the hook for their own failures)? Do you mean there's so much money expended that you'll be out on a limb if you can't make it pay (there are a dozen ways out of that situation...spending is not one of them)?
I suggest you test the complete system with a really good thermometer, a good stop-watch, a good measuring stick, and a good 1/50 scale model. You'll learn a lot and if that particular model doesn't do what you want, you will still have some good tools as assets for more testing. You can test 100 $40 models for $4000.
--Mark

Nick,

I am sorry for being too tied up to comment on your material expendatures. I can tell you that $4,000 is one heck of an order for us little guys.

NETWORKING your dollars: I have developed a good rapport with many of the fabricators in my area. Sometimes I can get drops for a fraction of the price of full lengths or sheets. Sometimes I can combine my order with another companie's order and we both get a better [rice.

Everybody likes a good deal, this is another opportunity to increase your contacts and business friends.

Email me your Bill of Materials and let me have a crack at price cutting even in your area but I can't immagine more than a 16' tandem axle trailer of materials to build your base.

I would also consider making your base from a combination of steel, aluminum and pressure treated timber. Just remember how many roller coasters are still being used that are over 30 years old. What do you even need to move @ 60mph? Lets spend your money where you will get the most bang for your bucks.

If you need some other types of support: load up power point on your lap top with your best dog and pony show, make some phone calls and get some major companies that are promoting green to help comp. some of your expenses.

You are going to need a gen-set and some switch-gear; that is the first place I would contact when you feel comfortable to do so.

Regards


--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

What I mean is: I have a lot of time and money invested in the storage
tank. The materials are very good and should last for decades if not
centuries. The material is way better than what is needed and that enables
more experiments and insures success. Yes it is a lot of money and would be
a set back indeed if it were a flop. This storage tank has a main objective
of smoothing out cloudy patches in order to get a smooth constant flow of
electricity. There are five thermocouples in the tank to give temperature
readings at different places.
Last year I used a 22" and a 10' dish for prototype experiments. Small
models of this system are not quick, cheap or easy to build. I feel that
this project is ready to be made at the twenty foot dish size and I am sure
that after it is tested we will come up with many modifications.
One thing: Tracking: is it possible to do this with the led types that
follow the brightest spot or do we need a computer program to move the dish?
How much heat and pressure will this stainless tubing take? It is 3/4"
X.035A ia304L ASTM A249/A269 and ASME SA-249 BRS-75 WFIDFDHT # 47754 It
is grreel to me but plenty good for no pressure 500F oil.
Thanks, Nick Landherr

--Nick Landherr
<mailto:theflag@smig.net>

Virtue is a mean or middle state between too much and not enough.

It is interesting to me that the purpose of the tank is to act as a heat capacitor. I'm sorry I didn't understand that.

There are other examples of that kind of 'smoothing out' of source energy or forces. One of my favorites is the heavy wheel or heavy pendulum for physical forces. Your 'heat sink' tank would be another example. Here in California, there is actually a thermal mass requirement in the building code.

Another example is the capacitor for electricity. They can be very efficient and are available in many sizes. It is like a battery that almost never wears down, and discharges automatically into the circuit when needed and is charged automatically by the circuit when not needed.
--Mark

Also, the idea of 'flop' is missing the boat on this project you've started. Failure IS success, as much as you can learn from it, minimize your expenses, and try again.

Like intial marketing research, your first trials are most likely to be way off target. There is just so much to learn out there, and so many unknowns. Every failure will help you re-define your objective and give you more knowledge for subsequent efforts.
--Mark

Nick- The 'how it works' is a good response and shows good potential for your concept. You need a strategic focus. A patent on the oil transfer design would buy you some time and an asset to raise capital. Otherwise you should go off the air and speed up your ability to have this item manufactured with your own standard (design patent) in/outs, then rush around to give away as many contracts to developers as possible so that your standard becomes part of this oil transfer industry. I say drop the storage and focus on the point.
--Mark

Re: Financing

You should tap out yourself, family and friends to get either a patent or a working product that you can have manufactured (home manufactured goods usually don't require much outside financing).

You can talk to any bank or accountant about financing development. They will tell you that you can either take out loans or issue stock in future profits. As a promoter of a corporation, you can issue stock and make legal commitments before any corporation is chartered. Stock issued by a corporate promoter is a financial asset. Of course, you can also take gifts, but that is taxable income whereas interest on loans is a deductible expense and you only pay dividends on shares if there is income to pay them.

If you're like me, and you'd rather not spend the rest of your life in paperwork, you could just build this system yourself at home and ship it out or install it locally. Even if you're only on a schedule C, you can still sell manufacturing and distribution licensing without too much trouble.
--Mark

Mark, Sorry been there done that with one of my best friends. After he got up to $15K and the patent kept comming back to dot the I's and cross the T's the attorney suggested changing over to a system of secrecy agreements.

I explained why even that was not even safe due to the fact that he still had no patent and yet the cat would be out of the bag.

My advice was this: treat the information like a treasure map: Cut it into 10 pieces and nobody gets more than one piece except the original owner. The only reason the project did not get off the ground was because the owner did not go into production and marketing himself. Then franchise it. This project is so complex that anybody capable of duplicating it and under cutting Nick would have to be working on the same thing in a parallel time frame and may do it any way. If Nick can complete his dish, collector and generating system in 6 to 9 months; I don't think anybody on the outside or inside can touch him. For one thing there is a lot of information in Nicks head that only comes out in a timely and as need to know basis; which is as it should be.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

Those are good suggestions about dealing with sensitive information when you have no way to compete with trans-national thieves. That's why I don't even try to compete, I just take my sweet time and carve and polish beauty. Trans-nationals can't compete with quality in excess or beauty!

What do you think about how Nick could make his system pay? It seems to me that the size prevents shipment. I think he either has to put together a smaller part of the product for distribution or a construction team for installation on government contract, if the model is proven. The options for finance still require a paper asset of some kind...promise of shares, shares, history of income, (patent), articles of incorporation, contracts franchise or licensing agreements. [Or skip all that and jump back to manufacturing quality for distribution from your own home.]
--Mark

Mark, I think nick deserves a lot of bragging rights for this site, the pics and comming as far as he has to date.

When his system is up and running to his goal, his prospects will multiply exponentially.

1. He can build and sell components.
2. He can write a book and perhaps make a movie like Al Gore did. A Nobel for Nick, who knows?
3. He may start a construction company that builds and installs multi-million dollar systems.
4. He may sell out to an industry giant and have a full time job just counting money.

At any rate, I wish him well and think the potential exists for all of the above.
--Bill f
<mailto:wef642@yahoo.com>

Well said, Bill. From what's up so far, it looks to me like he has enough talent himself and on his team to start developing marketing strategies for any one/more than one of those possibilities. No sense losing time waiting for the sun on a project like this.
--Mark

What flattery, thanks for all of your good words. For now these are only
plans and ideas. Please continue to help, now we will prove the theory and
then improve and modify the product.


--Nick Landherr
<mailto:theflag@smig.net>

feel free to visit my MySpace site at:

www.myspace.com/solarthermalelectric


--Nick

Nick- Is that your idea of marketing or did you change your product? If you want money, you could well be on the right track for investors. If you want to develop and launch a successful product, it looks like a pitfall. Anyway, Good Luck with whatever you're up to!
--Mark

The reason I put a link on myspace is because I want people to help me in all ways. The more people that I can contact the better.
--Nick

Nick- This is the link that Chevron or their 'indepedant' mediators don't wat people to see. This link is one of the few comments I've found to be aggressively censured.

Goto www.leavenworths.net and click Photo Gallery' Mind the spellng, there's an 'A' in 'Leavenworths'

Thanks again, Nick.
--Mark

These days are being used mostly to raise money. Everything I have is for sale. The mold for the mirrors is $13,000.00 and then the cost of each mirror on top of that. Any investors or customers who would like to buy mirrors should let me know ASAP. The order for the mirrors will be put in on or about 7/1/08. As always thanks for thinking,
Nick

Hi Nick,
In one of your pictures
(http://www.solarthermalelectric.org/images/11-20-2007-11.jpg), there is a parabolic mirror in the background. What is the reflective material? I'm building a smaller mirror myself (~4' diameter) and am researching what other people are using. Actually never mind, I just saw that you used Reflect Tec. Where did you get it and how well did it work? Does it survive being outdoors?
Good luck with your project. :)
Thanks,
Tom.

--Tom Eberhard

Hi Tom,
Actually I am quite happy with the way the reflectech held up through the Minnesota winter. When we put it on the dish we cut it into pie segment pieces which causes a lot of edge surface area and those are potential problems for it to come loose and some of the top clear layer came off due to wind and weather. We lost about 1% after one year. This can easily be repaired. You can buy it from http://www.reflectechsolar.com/ or I will sell you some for $4.00 a square foot. On the new rectangular mirrors there will be much less problem because the Reflectech will be one piece for each mirror. I would be interested to know more about your project Tom. Thanks,
Nick

Greetings and a tip of the hat for the ambitious project you are working on.

After reading a bit on the Think Tank Forum, it appears you considered spending a large chunk of change for the end of a train car tank to use as a form to make parabolic dishes from.
I remember an article on how to make such a mold but cannot for the life of me find it now. But I can relate the basic idea.

They started with a vertical metal post cemented into the ground, around which was piled a couple of truck loads of damp sand. Then they drew a parabolic curve on a sheet of plywood which was then cut. The curved plywood was mounted on the post a couple of inches below the top of the sand and mounted in a manner to allow it to pivot. Pulling the wood around the pile of sand smoothed the sand out into a parabolic shape. Sand was added or removed as needed in different spots. Once the parabolic sand shape was made, they covered the sand with fiberglass strips and resin and built it up in stages to the desired thickness. In this way, they built a fiberglass dish from scratch.

I suppose other materials could be used. You could even cap the sand with a concrete layer to make a more permanent parabolic mold.
Anyway, that would be a lot cheaper than that tank end, would not cost a fortune to haul, and the focal point of the resulting parabola is determined by the curve drawn on the plywood.
Hope this was of some help.

Davetech - 57 yr old tinkerer.
http://davetech23.tripod.com

First... I want to thank the people that have donated time and money to me and this project. There has been one very generous donation which has enabled me to send the purchase order for an aluminum mold.
The mold will make high density polyethylene sheets which will be four feet square and have a focal point of thirteen feet. Each one of these mirrors will be attached to an aluminum tube grid and will be individually aimed in order to focus on one focal point about thirteen feet away. In turn this grid will track the sun. The panels are purchased from the same company and will be lined with reflec-tech or mylar most likely in my shop. These mirrors will be more than ninety percent efficient!
If this works as planned we will be able to sell mirrors for less than $250.00 each and I am taking orders. The price goes down with quantity. We will have the mirrors in house before the end of March 09 and after that I am not sure when we will make more. There is a fifty part minimum, so if you are interested please contact me soon. Thank you all, Nick Landherr


--Nick